gapingvoid: "cartoons drawn on the back of business cards"

This is *EXACTLY* why I love you, Hugh. I'm sending this to all the people I'm working with...

Rock on...

I enjoyed reading that. I feel like the male lead will be very difficult to cast - Hallam is a pretty intense character, and so it will need a special kind of actor to do the role justice.

I was just trying to imagine what the results would be if Mozart/Schikaneder had posted the Zauberflöte for blogger review, or Beckett his Waiting for Godot.

Personally I have doubts on whether the customer always knows what he oder she truly wants. (no customer ever wanted "gmail".)

And: I have to think of a Simpsons sequel, where Homer gets to design his dream car at his brother Herbert's car factory - and leads that factory into bankrupcy by designing a feature-packed vehicle unfit for anything.

I don't think that this is a great idea. Why? You are asking people to judge how they will feel living in a house when they only see the architectures sketch.

Will say: Not everyone will be able to make that click in their head imagine how it will be played.

So is it a bad idea? No, if you stick to what you believe in and take comments (as this one) as advice from my personal perspective. And then take it into account - or just ignore it. ;)

But to get constructive, I did take a short look at the script and would suggest the following (becasue I am missing that): Make a pre page to that script setting me up, like describing main characters and what one could expect them to be.

Second: a short synoppsis of the content and in where some major differences to the novel might be.

I would accompany the script with some sound or video files like from reading some scenes out loud to give me a rough image / audio of what I can expect.

Perhaps even with the two main characters doing just the reading of some scenes. Both will bring so much already richness into this mix, that it will be so much easier to dive into the script and 'help' with it.

Some photos / scetches perhaps of what the scenes should look like.

Because in the end it is supposed to work as a movie - and I believe many of us are not 'trained' or experienced enough to transfer just a script to text.

... on the other hand: Kafka regularly read out his stories to friends and family, watching their reactions and reediting again and again (yet still leaving most of his stuff unpublished, but that's another story).

personally, this is a stupid idea. Or a very smart one in that you get free advice on your work. Other people take the time to read and crit your script, and you get their ideas, for free!

You should write a good script yourself, and make the film. The reason a lot of films turn out so crap is that too many people are involved in the process, a complaint that scriptwriters often make. Sometimes they don't even want to be associated with the final product. It may make you feel all warm and squishy inside to feel like some sort of community, but art isn't done by committee.

@min: actually, films are *always* done by a comitee. spielberg may be the director, but all the work and a huge amount of the creative input comes from other people.

Hey Hugh et al...

I can't help but feel that this is a brilliant idea. I've emailed you my comments re the film.

Naturally, many people reading the script will NOT be literate in scriptreading. It's very much an acquired skill. However, enough people reading your blog ARE active in this world, meaning you'll be getting enough good input to make it worthwhile.

To those who aren't all that skilled in reading a film script, simply having access to it before the movie is made is an amazing privilege.

Even film professionals will now feel invested in it. I, for one, feel like I'm somehow PART of the process now. I'm going to be watching the movie to see if any of my suggestions made it in. That would be super groovy.

Re some of the comments above... such as some people wanting more information, sound clips, storyboards etcetera... I'm not sure I would agree with that. Because those things are all about PRODUCTION, not the script.

As far as I can tell, your aim in persuading David to release the script in this way is to fix the STORY, not the FILM. Story is totally accessible via a screenplay. It just takes a bit of effort to read, that's all.

Well done for this initiative, dudes. May you get superb comments, and lovely improvements for the next draft.

Blue skies
love
Roy

PS: I'll cut and paste my emailed comments into this comments section for everyone to see.

This is an interesting experiment. I'm keen to know how much the story or screenplay change to accomodate the wishes of the readers.

I can see this working well in software, food products, clothing, all sorts of things, but for film? Like I said, an interesting experiment.

I am probably one of very few who have read Peter's book. I did so becuase I knew him when I was at school and I knew a little about the inspiration for it.

From what I recall, the story was obviously semi-autobiographical and, no offence, not very well written.

I'll download and read the screenplay and add any comments I may have. Why not in PDF though?

Yo Hugh...

Thank you very much for making the HALLAM FOE script available for open sourcing. I love what you're doing, dude.

Here are my comments...

1. I really enjoyed reading the script. Very vividly written. I care about Hallam and his situation. And I was gripped all the way through.

2. In scene 35, Hallam leaves his chest unlocked. I found this VERY unlikely, given what I knew about him. As a character, he came across as paranoid and ultra cautious about security. So when he left the kist open, I simply couldn't believe it. That's on a believability level.

On a Hollywood bullshit-o-meter level, I said to myself, 'Ah... damn! Story point! Now the stepmom's gonna go in and rummage through his stuff. Blah!!!' And of course, I was right. I would reallllly like to see one of two things happen...

Either... (a) FORCE Hallam to leave the kist open, and show us his anxiety. Give us a real crisis where he KNOWS that he's messed with his own habits, and gets nailed for it. (b) Have him lock the kist, but have his stepmom being fairly cunning and opening it without his knowledge. Or have her smash it open.

3. The first act, while powerful and thrilling and enjoyable, is severely disconnected from the second and third acts. I would realllllllllllllllllllly like to have some tiny fragments of connectivity between the acts. The one solution that would make huge sense to me is to open the film with Son and Dad in a hotel. Dad is trying to force his son to go to a university in the city, which is why they're there. Hallam catches sight of this mystery figure, who simply disappears from his view. Evades his detective skills. Something like that.

This gives Hallam a reason to go to that particular hotel. It also fuels a bit of better business between him and Alasdair. Lets Alasdair indeed recognise him vaguely as a guest when they're sharing the lift down from the roof.

It obviates the reliance on coincidence to get Hallam and the babe together. (I realllly don't dig the coincidence of him searching with binoculars and happening to find someone who just looks like his mom.) (And yes... of COURSE it's still a coincidence that he sees her right at the beginning of the movie (in my version), but it's early, and it's plausible.)

4. I found Kate's character a little thin. I can understand and buy her ambivalence. But she seems just a little bit too much of a basic slut to be totally believable. I'm uneasy about how quickly she embraced HALLAM as a lover, especially given HOW they came to be embroiled. I need either... (a) just a few more glimpses into her, so that I can BELIEVE this woman, or (b) a better, more gradual transition into her embracing him as a lover.

5. I do want to see Kate closer to the beginning of the movie. For me, the movie starts at the beginning of act 2 at the moment. Which is a problem. Act 1 feels like a prologue.

6. Please consider having the sister and end scenes set in Cape Town instead of Australia. And you could do some wine product placement too. (Cape Town is cheaper than Aus, and Table Mountain is hugely iconic. AND loads of British people have relatives here. Which MIGHT get a sliver of a percent of them to actually see the flick.)

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to have my say. I'm looking forward to seeing the flick.

Blue skies
love
Roy

ROY'S COMMENTS. PART 1:

Yo Hugh...

Thank you very much for making the HALLAM FOE script available for open sourcing. I love what you're doing, dude.

Here are my comments...

1. I really enjoyed reading the script. Very vividly written. I care about Hallam and his situation. And I was gripped all the way through.

2. In scene 35, Hallam leaves his chest unlocked. I found this VERY unlikely, given what I knew about him. As a character, he came across as paranoid and ultra cautious about security. So when he left the kist open, I simply couldn't believe it. That's on a believability level.

ROY's COMMENTS (part 2)

On a Hollywood bullshit-o-meter level, I said to myself, 'Ah... damn! Story point! Now the stepmom's gonna go in and rummage through his stuff. Blah!!!' And of course, I was right. I would reallllly like to see one of two things happen...

Either... (a) FORCE Hallam to leave the kist open, and show us his anxiety. Give us a real crisis where he KNOWS that he's messed with his own habits, and gets nailed for it. (b) Have him lock the kist, but have his stepmom being fairly cunning and opening it without his knowledge. Or have her smash it open.

3. The first act, while powerful and thrilling and enjoyable, is severely disconnected from the second and third acts. I would realllllllllllllllllllly like to have some tiny fragments of connectivity between the acts. The one solution that would make huge sense to me is to open the film with Son and Dad in a hotel. Dad is trying to force his son to go to a university in the city, which is why they're there. Hallam catches sight of this mystery figure, who simply disappears from his view. Evades his detective skills. Something like that.

This gives Hallam a reason to go to that particular hotel. It also fuels a bit of better business between him and Alasdair. Lets Alasdair indeed recognise him vaguely as a guest when they're sharing the lift down from the roof.

It obviates the reliance on coincidence to get Hallam and the babe together. (I realllly don't dig the coincidence of him searching with binoculars and happening to find someone who just looks like his mom.) (And yes... of COURSE it's still a coincidence that he sees her right at the beginning of the movie (in my version), but it's early, and it's plausible.)

Hmmmm. Remember, when asked, the top film in the UK is "Star Wars," and the top book is "Lord of the Rings".

Now, I like "Star Wars," although I tried reading "Lord of the Rings Again" recently, and had to give up it was so dreadful, even though I had loved it when I was thirteen. The general public tend to like middle of the road escapism, which is not something that Dave really interests himself in...

Point being, I tend to concur with the posters who say that while this is a very good "buzz machine", it will not lead to a better script...

Nicely done, Hugh - another interesting experiment via your blog. I'm up in the air to whether this will have meaningful impact on the script - but the fact that you and David are giving it a shot is very cool. Best of luck.

Just a minor point, I wouldn't say this is an Open Source project of any kind - more like opening it up for a peer review of sorts.

Back to the original discussion about critics - I wonder if there's some sort of analyst group that does this kind of thing in the movie industry? I.e. - a filmmaker could have a group of experts in the field review and give feedback before it goes to production, or even before trying to get studios to pick it up. Maybe the critics could do double duty and do pre-production consulting in addition to post-production critiquing :)?

Hugh,
Great idea! As a marketing professional, I have created a number of works through "peer review" and while I have found it a bit of pain-in-the-neck at times, the process helps catch "glaring errors" and keeps a fresh pair of eyes on the final product (which is often hard for the author to do since they have been writing and re-writing it so much that they often lose perspective).
I look forward to seeing how this turns out (both as a development tool and as a early form of marketing for the film).
Another great experiment at the void!
Dave

Reminds me of halcyon days of 2003, when johnnie Moore, Tony Goodison and I tried to write a book together online - with an invitation to one and all to contribute.

Died in a deluge of spam, 3 months later.

I really believe artistic collaboration SHOULD be a killer app for social software...

Sock it to em!

i don't know how this will all shake out, but i do know that a large proportion of film freaks don't want to have a film's plot or ending ruined for them, and therefore won't want to be in on the shaping of the script...to many, the filmgoing experience is a sacred experience, one they don't want ruined by knowing too much beforehand. these are the preview-haters. but these are not all filmgoers, and i'd guess a certain amount might also think it's neat to read the script beforehand and be in on the shaping process.

I'm not sure if I concur with the "Art By Committee" accusation ;-)

Robert and Shel wrote their book "Naked Conversations" on a blog and invited comments on feedback (URL: http://redcouch.typepad.com ). This to me isn't that much different.

Of course everybody tells you what to do - the hard part about it is to ignore the things which are not relevant for you. :)

As in 'if everybody just loves it you should get suspicious'. ;)

Would love to know what the studio/producer types of Hallam Foe think of this idea... sounds like the type of thing that might cause Executive Thrombosis.

Many say (including above) that THE big problem with moviemaking is that there are too many hands in the pot. Too many talkers and decision makers pissing on what might have been a good idea. I sometimes think it would be best if one person could produce, write, direct and act the whole thing... of course, impossible.

Also, depending upon how many weigh in and what changes those opinions bring, who is the actual "screenwriter" in the end? There's nothing wrong with the community effort for those who want it that way, but can the screenwriter honestly type his name on it when he hands it in?

Nonetheless, I do look forward to seeing if this actually produces a better script.

Supremely creative idea Mr. MacLeod. Your world keeps getting more and more interesting.

Ahh, the plot thickens.

"There's nothing wrong with the community effort for those who want it that way, but can the screenwriter honestly type his name on it when he hands it in?"

Depends on the input of the community ;-)

Hello, this is David here, the director and co screenplay writer of Hallam. I am finding the comments so far very interesting and many thanks for all input. Obviously the constructive responses are most useful and for that many thanks to Roy for his excellent comments which contain ideas and suggestions I can actually use. The more of this type of mature and well thought out response I can get the better the experiment will be.

I would like to let everyone know that I am doing this film through my own company and as much on my terms as a film can be, so I am not beholden to a slew of studio execs telling me what to do with the script. Nor of course will I be under any obligation to adjust my script according to any comments received during this experiment. But my hope is that I might receive ideas from the blogosphere that are helpful to the process.

The main job I have in this redraft of the script is to shorten it by about 15 pages in order to make the schedule work in a way to maximise the quality of the material on screen. (the word version available here comes out longer than the 100 page final draft version I have, but I had problems converting that to PDF without all my revison marks confusing the issue).

Thank you everyone for making this experiment interesting and potentially useful.

BTW at least part of the reason why I am doing this project is becasue I think book on which it's based is excellent and beautifully written. So I strongly disagree with the chap who had a wee swipe at the book.

Many thanks, David.

David & Hugh,

Love what you're trying to do here.

Would be interesting if you could keep it going, blogging about the proces, etc.

Much inspiration could come from what Peter Jackson is doing in terms of process with the King Kong movie - wired had a long writeup not too long ago http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.10/kingkong_pr.html

Genius idea! I'm looking forward to see how it turns out.

btw Roy re your script point 6. Lucy does go to South Africa in the book - I changed it to Australia in the script because of the idea of Verity sending her as far away as possible. But for reasons of pure economics (i.e. us geting there to shoot it) there is a very high chance we might revert to SA.

Keep the comments coming guys. Thanks.

This is a great idea, though certainly not without issues as many of the comments above point out. Many filmmakers run their ideas by friends and acquaintences, and are beholden to studios. What I find fascinating is that by posting the script online, the sphere of influence is greatly expanded to include objective and fresh opinions that might otherwise never be uncovered. There are no egos, agendas or patronization as might be experienced in a traditional scenario. How much input David eventually incorporates is still entirely up to him. This is in contrast to another interesting online experiment in which journalist A.J. Jacobs, writing an article about wikis for Esquire, posted a poorly written version of the article on Wikipedia with instructions and let the community re-write the article. I doubt David will be soliciting opinions throughout the entire filmmaking process, at least I hope not, as that's precisely why he's gone independent!

Yo David...

Re losing 15 pages

I'm fairly certain that the whole of the first act as it stands is largely extraneous. It's 'nice-to-have', but not essential.

Also, the treehouse stuff is pretty high budget to shoot, so maybe culling it will release budget for the other stuff?

But nah... I quite like the solitary madness of the treehouse, and the way it foregrounds his rooftop adventures.

It's more a case of trimming that first act to the essential character-establishing scenes. And adding the bits that intro our female lead.

Thinking in terms of writing a female lead that is a tad more 'star-friendly', I'd like you to give me a tiny scene showing me that she's FORCED to have sex with Alisdair, and that it's not VOLUNTARY.

(I know there's a sort of implication that he's got something over her, but she nullifies that near the end of her arc by suggesting that she's kinda okay with it.)

What I'm expressing here is that I need her to be more sympathetic. At present, I don't feel much for her. She's a bit of a placeholder for our heroe's development.

Blue skies
love
Roy

Hi

Just to let you know that, in a different field, a fellow blogger is making a similar move by inviting comments to the manuscript of his international politics book:

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/002365.html

Hugh,

RE: Pulling down the draft, you need to either rename the file or yank it off the server, because its location is still there in the Google cache.

Fair enough, Tim, but I also changed the contents of the file...

Not really a dumb idea. A lot of the great comedians of the 30s and 40s got to hone their material in front of live audiences before they used it in film, as well as guys like Roger Corman whose films would go from town to town, he would see what worked in front of a crowd and would re-edit before they hit the next town.

The only problem you might get is if someone decided to take you to court for a share of the films proceeds because one of their ideas got used.

Ahhh, culture of participation becomes freeloader central; more eyeballs doesn't translate into quality. An Army of wantabe-amateur-script-consultants or a small hit team of proven producers? Personally I'd just pay Alex Epstein some bucks and have him at it. Now marketing the movie, itself, beforehand is a good idea, but an open-invite to help craft a script is pure chaos.

Plus it ruins any sense of discovery, the ending is known, spoiler-breaking is the unpardonable sin all along Wilshire. And not to mention that this opens up a LEGAL can of worms. If did a rewrite (which it so obviously needs, never mind just the 15 pages) and he uses it, and I get no cut, you better believe I will sic lawyers and WGA all over him. This is DANGEROUS territory, he should know that.

I, myself, am a screenwriter (sadly more speechwriter these days), but you don't get a rewrite man for free. Besides scripting is an ever-changing vocational art, placing script in the hands of people who don't know the basics of Hollywood script format or the in's and out's of the Development Community is an invitation to disaster. I could help, but ummm, show green stuff. :)

And it's VASTLY different than Robert and Shel, but even that is really 70-80% Shel and 20-30% Wiley editors (Robert's just the name), with the bloggers doing the fact-checking and editing help for free, with zero return. Open Source, blah, it's usually nominal talent getting other people to do their work for them.

PS - In MSFT Word format? You NUTS? Final Draft or Movie Maker PDF only. Scripts in Word are suicide, Readers won't touch them, you will get NO coverage. MS Word scripts? Ok, that's ANOTHER unpardonable sin. :)

Christopher, I think from a producer's standpoint, the "This is the way it is" attitude of many of my "Traditional Media" colleagues should be encouraged. It keeps their prices down ;-)

Hiya Christopher...

I think some of your assumptions might profit from being challenged. My take on your comments, even though you've used smileys, is that you're firmly in the paradigm of 'payment equals quality', and 'lack of payment equals marginal talent'.

I'm in the paradigm that the open source movement allows powerful acts of fruitful generosity.

For instance, I'm not an incompetent screenwriter. And I devoted a good two and a bit hours to reading the screenplay (in Word format), and a good few more hours to making notes on that same screenplay.

I'm very most certainly NOT expecting to get paid, and I give my comments freely and with my blessings, HOPING that they're useful in some way, and might find their way into a shot movie. Nobody has ANY fears at all that I'll sue them for profit participation!!!

That thought could only come from non-open source paradigm thinking.

Here's how I see it.

My offering comments to David serves me in many different ways.

1. He gets to know of my existence as a screenwriter. If he likes any of my comments, he may say to himself, 'Hmmmm, this Roy fella stuck on the southern tip of Africa seems to know a thing or two. I may think of asking him for a script he may have lying about. Or maybe one day I'll ask him to take a stab at an idea I have running around in my brain.'

2. Other massive-media types who read Hugh's blog get to see my no-strings-attached comments. (I have to point out that even though I benefit from these comments, I'm offering them freely. I'm not EXPECTING anything at all to come from them.) They may look into my world and say, 'Hey... Roy's useable to me.'

3. I get to hone my critical skills more, and I learn more about the craft of movie writing. I don't know if you've ever been active on Coppola's zoetrope.com. The way that works is that writers have to offer meaningful critiques of around five screenplays before they can get feedback on their own screenplay. One of the premises is that the more you read and critique, the better your own writing becomes.

4. I kick myself in my own butt and say, 'Okay! I've GOT scripts! Write the goddamn marketing blurbs and start shipping them to producers.' Commenting on David's screenplay lights a fire under me.

5. I get to rub shoulders with an established filmmaker. An indie filmmaker. Someone able to raise money to make films. This is quite simply delicious for me.

There are probably countless other reasons to offer my thinking to David freely and without expectation.

I trust that David is able to look at comments and say, 'Hmmm... that's a crap comment, that's a good one, that's an even crapper one. And yeah! Here's the big one!!!' I trust that HE has the critical distance on his own script to be able to find value in the myriad ideas offered by this diverse bunch of readers.

I also trust the levels of my own criticism. I know my skills. And I'm sure they shine through. And hey... if they don't... it MAY be that I'm deluding myself.

But you know what? If I'm deluding myself, it would be better for me to know that. And commenting in such a public forum is a very exposing thing to do. I'm naked before the world.

If I'm delusional, the world will tell me. Which would be great, cos then I wouldn't have to waste my time redrafting my script.

Re your PS about the format... David wrote it in Final Draft. Only professional screenwriters are likely to have Final Draft, so if he offered it to us in that format, only those of us who own Final Draft would be able to read the thing.

If he offered it to us in PDF format, that is intrinsically a non-open source format. It cannot be edited. It cannot be bookmarked. It's closed. It does not INVITE comment.

I have legal copies of Movie Magic, Final Draft and Sophocles on my machine. I also have ScriptWright, an add-on for MS Word that is just as professional as ANY package.

But I love Sophocles. It is the package I choose to write in. Do I see you as a lesser being because you choose Final Draft??? And yes... I can easily export it to Final Draft format if I need to send it to Hollywood.

So why should David fit in with your preconceptions of what's acceptable? Remember, he's GOT financing for this film already, whether he wrote it on napkins or in Windows Notepad or on a typewriter.

So, Christopher... I challenge you to take the three or four hours off from your speechwriting and crit David's script. I'll bet you you'll get huge benefit out of it, even if that's just the warm fuzzy feeling of sharing your expertise and knowledge.

Blue skies
love
Roy

There is definitely a precedent for open source script-improvement.

Billy Wilder talked to Cameron Crowe about spitballing sessions with comedy writers in the book, CONVERSATIONS WITH WILDER.

These guys would meet once a week. They'd mention story blockages, or sketch rough outlines of work-in-progress. They'd each contribute freely and without expectation of credit to each other's scripts. Some contributions would be used. Some wouldn't.

Overall, the comedy writing skills of ALL participants stayed sharp and even improved.

Who would have benefited if each of the half dozen or so particpants in those spitballing sessions were demanding payment???

Blue skies
love
Roy

PS: Dammit. I've looked through the book to try and find the names of all of the participants. But the index is terrible, and I simply cannot find it on a quick flick through. My memory tells me that Simon brothers were somehow involved. Does anyone know?

This script analysis is the sort of thing TriggerStreet was made for.

Part of the TriggerStreet policy for providing the service is right of first refusal on script purchases, but if you can work around that, open a TriggerStreet account, post your script there, and do a few reviews yourselves to pump up your credits.

You'll have a dozen or more above-average assessments within a few days.

Focus groups and audience feedback have always been part of the equation, it's just a tad more demographically-targeted than the blogger touchy-feely Internet randomness. And you don't play the film to the critics either, as professional critics have a differing outlook. Crits hated Flightplan but audiences lapped it up. Crits loved The Constant Gardener but audiences found it a chore. The Crits got toothaches over Dreamer, but audiences love such feel-good spin. Entertainment vs. Art...the eternal battle.

And single visions also work out, having every Producer or Development guy kick it around muddles it up so much that it's worthless. And never change until ALL agree, as Development has to crank out agreed-upon notes, otherwise you will be in eternal rewrite hell. I can see the value in a limited small-focus group sense (under NDA and all) but not this 'open source' running water.

Besides you really have to sit down and talk over the story and hash out the big picture, as without an full assessment as to what the '800 lb gorilla' wants, imparting my vision on someone else's vision is a ticket to nowhere. Open Sourcing seems endless work before your figure out WHERE said person is heading. Makign teh script better, tighter and more functional

But zoetrope.com is quite useful (although I'd never want to kill future potential) but craft-honing is always a good thing, I personally just like to memorize and tell the story, everyone can feedback on the story, a far better idea than helping write the script itself. Heck, once you have a good outline, the script sort of writes itself. Tell the story, get feedback on the story, write the script yourself and if need be bring in a script consultant, not getting the unwashed Internet masses.

As for your points...

"He gets to know of my existence as a screenwriter." - Bit naive eh? ;) Hollywood is full of them. Dime a dozen. Recall 'The Last Shot' signature line? "This is Hollywood. Just go outside and ask anyone you see to give you a script. A gardener, a cripple, a child molester. They've all got 'em."

Ack. Trigger happy POST return hit. Oh well... :)